Forward Thinking: At the World Cities Summit (WCS), there was a lot of talk about the important role leadership plays in making a great urban environment. For you, how much did leadership play a role in the transformation of Curitiba?

Jaime Lerner: I think when you want to have change, you must first have political will. You have to have solidarity and strategy. You must know how to build a good equation of core responsibility, one that transforms problems to solutions. This will has to be a commitment from people to the areas that leadership wants to improve. It has to be a team effort. 

FT: I’m curious to know the relationship between top-down and bottom-up management. Did citizens start to help take over control and progression of the initiatives you started? 

JL: First of all, you have to propose a scenario, an idea, or a project that the large majority will understand is desirable. If they understand it is desirable, they will help you make it happen. If people understand that certain ideas are very desirable, sometimes it’s a trajectory emerges-- one you can always correct as it progresses. You need to leave room for correction; you cannot pretend to have all the answers. People need to have an understanding that innovation is starting. When you start, it can always be improved.  

I try to always give a challenge or a task that is sometimes higher than that person expected. When they realize this challenge, they feel so gratified and so motivated. It always has to be a big, good challenge. You always have to deal with bureaucracy, but you can transform part of it in people committed to help you to build scenarios and ideas. 

FT: What were the accomplishments you were most proud of?

JL: The self-esteem of the people. The pride of being part of the city. Their identity. Also, the idea that everyone feels respected. Curitiba is not a paradise, we have problems that every Brazilian and every city has, but what makes a difference is giving respect to people. When there is a need for education, transport, healthcare, childcare—every time there is a need for public service—it should be delivered with a high degree of quality. People then feel respected. I think that is the key issue. 

FT: We hear a lot about the amazing successes of your work in Curitiba. Do you have any examples of initiatives started in Curitiba that perhaps didn’t go according to plan, or didn’t achieve the outcomes you had hoped?

JL: Well, some of [ideas] were improved by people. For example, when we started to plan our parks, it was that kind of planning that established a grade of parks, and a distance that people should walk to get to a park. I got many reactions, one of them was that “You’re going to build all these parks, it is going to be very expensive, and it will take 20 years until you have the vegetation developed. Why not save existing woods?” 

It was a really a good reaction and we decided to save the existing woods. Since then, the average green area in Curitiba per resident went up from half a square meter to 50 square meter per inhabitant. Considering the population tripled, it is now 300 times more green space. 

Even if something is not a good start, you begin to better understand the problem. It is always dealing with the needs and potentials. I would say it is a good strategy, and keeping the balance between needs and potentials. If you work only with the needs of people, you won’t change anything. 

FT: How would you describe the best management style?

JL: The best results of all are going to the street. I never had bodyguards. I always walked alone in the city. Why? The best safety is respect. So I used to walk alone, and the people always took care of me. The moment that they saw that you were open, and to listen, they knew they could talk with no bureaucracy in between. I used to live my life normally, my wife and I used to go to movie theatres, and use public transport. 

FT: What advice might you give to other up and coming leaders on making a difference to their community?

JL: People they can feel when you have a strong commitment. When I knew the shared cause, the collective dream, I knew that I could handle political problems knowing that as long as I’m keeping what is fundamental.  I can deal with what is politically important. When you deal with bureaucracy, you need to have all of them working with a sense of commitment. 

FT: Under what conditions might it be necessary, even mandatory for a civic leader to be heavy handed to resolve a serious issue?

JL: Sometimes decisions have to be unpopular. When I was a mayor, with inflation of 30 percent per month in my second term, could you imagine how to deal with that? We had to raise the tariff of public transport every month. Of course it was unpopular, but I tried to explain the need to raise it, why it wouldn’t work otherwise. It is very difficult to work with inflation. 

Sometimes you just have to do it. And now when I’m walking down the street, people only remember the good issues. If you left a good legacy, they remember that always. If you left a bad legacy, they remember the unpopular issues. I didn’t know all the answers-- it was always a learning process. When you are honest and trustworthy, people can still respect even if it is unpopular. 

FT: Outside of civic government, what role do you think business has to play in solving urban challenges? Do you have any examples from Curitiba? 

JL: I realize one thing that applies to all business: if they don’t know what vision the government wants, they can work against the city most of the time. When they understand the vision, business can move along with the vision. It’s how to transform businesses in favour of the city, not against the city. Normally, if you can provoke a good partnership, the business sector will help you. For one reason—nobody wants to have their business in the city when there is no quality of life. 

FT: One of the main takeaways from your panel discussion at WCS was that livable cities enable economic prosperity. There seems to be a very elemental level of understanding about this connection. What do you think are the ingredients that a city needs to get right?

JL: You always have to enhance creativity, identity, diversity, and solidarity. I realize that if a city that is good for kids and young people, and for jobs and opportunity, you’re on the right track. In office, I used to say if you want creativity, cut one zero from your budget. If you want sustainability, cut two zeros from your budget. If you want solidarity, keep your identity and respect diversity. 

When I look to many cities in the world, they’re a sort of fashion design show. We need more eco-architecture rather than ego-architecture. If not, every city would like Dubai and would lose its identity. When people say they don’t have a sense of belonging, it’s difficult because they do not have a link with the city. A city needs to be like a turtle: living, moving, and working together in all parts—not separating functions and identities.

FT: In the Asia Pacific region, what obstacles might you foresee to connecting livable cities, economic prosperity and an identity with people?

JL: If you’re improving quality of life for your people, you can be sure it will help your businesses. These are important issues. I’m not the scale of a city. I know in Asia the scale is huge, but I know cities in very rich countries with 100,000 people and they’re worse off than cities of 15 million people because the soul of a city remains. It’s each citizen that performs his project of life. If you’re able to propose a good place and a good project of life for them, you cannot be scared about scale. Every city in the world could improve its quality of life in less than three years. But they have to start. Sometimes from small demonstrated effects, little by little, they can build a great change. 

FT: What do you think Singapore could do to “enhance the soul of the people”, as you put it—to help make the city that much more vibrant and livable?

JL: Singapore is different because it is a place where you have a good quality of life. Good streetscapes matter, because the street is the synthesis of society, the fabric of society. [You need] good places. It’s sometimes much better than iconic buildings. We are very proud of our stars, but we need more constellations of people working well for their cities. I always liked to work with artists, philosophers, and poets because they have a special skin… they can feel society earlier. If you can work with people who can feel society earlier, why would you work with others? 

FT: Now that you’ve largely retired from civic life in Brazil, what are your plans for the years ahead?

JL: I’m having fun. I work with what I like. I’m doing urban acupuncture because I’m taking my team into some city, work for weeks with people in cities for a few ideas, and at the end of this period, we finish with one or two outcomes that they can create a new energy for the city. Planning takes time. Accupuncture is to help plan the process of planning. So I’m working in many ideas now, many countries, many cities, but I don’t want to waste my time in being a consultant. In the first year you’re a hero, the second year the mayor tries to tell you why he’s not doing your ideas, and the third he’s not answering your calls. What I like is to be helpful, to use the experience of 40 years working in cities and having the legitimacy of saying it’s possible because I did it. I work with what is creative.